Curse

Chthon · Feb 01, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

[edit: These results are invalid. See post 17.]

As best I can tell, the aftercast is not reduced by IAS. So:

Code:

x		penetrating/sundering	normal_short/flat	normal_long/recurve	normal_horn
no IAS		1.25			2.0			2.4			2.7
15% IAS		1.1375			1.7			2.04			2.295
25% IAS		1.0625			1.5			1.8			2.025
33% IAS		0.995			1.32			1.584			1.782

As you can see, while penetrating/sundering still comes out a lot faster than the base attack speed, adding IAS very nearly erases that advantage.

Xsiriss · Feb 01, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Yeah they really need to get rid of that aftercast for PvE,already hit other attacks in it too...

Desert Rose · Feb 01, 2010, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I am not sure if the numbers are correct, because they disagree with my ingame experience. When I've seen the update the first thing I've done was to test out my Turret Ranger; to my surprise the damage nearly hasn't changed much from before. Now I deal ~76 DPS without alcohol, before the update I'v dealed ~78 DPS with alcohol.

own age myname · Feb 02, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

But still, rangers are weak enough with a bow in PvE.

Chthon · Feb 02, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

I am not sure if the numbers are correct, because they disagree with my ingame experience. When I've seen the update the first thing I've done was to test out my Turret Ranger; to my surprise the damage nearly hasn't changed much from before. Now I deal ~76 DPS without alcohol, before the update I'v dealed ~78 DPS with alcohol.

1. Your results are impossible. If you could, I'd tell you that you need to repeat your experiment with more consistent execution, but you can't test on the old versions.

2. Long-term DPS shouldn't necessarily suffer terribly much. As compared to before, there's an additional dead time due to the aftercast ranging from 0.25 sec/use at no IAS to ~0.33 sec/use at 33% IAS. Depending on your bow type and timing, you may have already had dead time from canceled auto-attacks, and you could conceivably get lucky and counteract the aftercast dead time by reducing the canceled-auto-attack dead time. Of course, you may not get lucky...

What's definitely lost is the short-term DPS spike from using these skills in rapid succession. Which was largely the point of having them in the first place.

3. In any event, my point was that the aftercast more-or-less cancels out the time saved by the fixed activation time if you're under 33% IAS. So, when making skill choices, you can mentally treat them as normal activation time attacks and judge them based on their other properties.

ac1inferno · Feb 02, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Why does it matter? Were they used even before they got nerfed? Isn't PvE all about AoE damage like [[Barrage]?

Luminarus · Feb 02, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

It was fun to use, but not as efficient as some other options.

FoxBat · Feb 02, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

The .75 skills don't feel like they have a .5 aftercast. Seems more like .25, although it could be .375. The change to .75 is mostly then for clarity, so you can follow an unwritten rule like "all 1s bows have .5 aftercast, all .75s have x aftercast", etc.

However that aftercast still doesn't adjust for IAS, making for a slight nerf compared to before.

Pepe El Telefonista · Feb 02, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

IAS, What does it means?

Tenebrae · Feb 02, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Why does it matter? Were they used even before they got nerfed? Isn't PvE all about AoE damage like [[Barrage]?

Yeah , and all warriors should be paladins ! they rock PvE ! .... dear god

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepe El Telefonista

IAS, What does it means?

Increased Attack Speed

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The .75 skills don't feel like they have a .5 aftercast. Seems more like .25, although it could be .375. The change to .75 is mostly then for clarity, so you can follow an unwritten rule like "all 1s bows have .5 aftercast, all .75s have x aftercast", etc.

However that aftercast still doesn't adjust for IAS, making for a slight nerf compared to before.

Bingo , only worth on Hornbows . With 2 sec attk rate bows that aftercast is annoying.

Desert Rose · Feb 02, 2010, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Why does it matter? Were they used even before they got nerfed? Isn't PvE all about AoE damage like [[Barrage]?

If you wanted to use bows (despite the fact it wasn't sensible even before the update) the best thing you can do is spamming fast activation attacks.
AoE isn't worthwhile in most PvE areas because there are simply not a sufficient number of big groups next to each other.

ac1inferno · Feb 02, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Well the difference between paladins and barrage rangers is that barrage works and paladins don't.

The idea of barrage is to target groups of enemies to increase damage output, so if there's not enough targets, aggro more?

It's just been my experience in PvE that AoE works better than single target damage.

WhiteAsIce · Feb 04, 2010, 03:06 AM // 03:06

If not Barrage, since Pene/Sund Attack is dead, I'm thinking of a Point Blank/Zojun's turret. Still trying to compile a build for that though.

Desert Rose · Feb 12, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Thanks to an explanation from FoxBat we are able to correct the initial chart so that it can explain actual ingame experiance.

The numbers indicate how long it take to start the next attack:

Code:

x		Penetrating Attack	Penetrating Attack	normal_short/flat	normal_long/recurve	normal_horn
		before update		after update
no IAS		1.00			0.875			2.0			2.4			2.7
15% IAS		0.85			0.81875			1.7			2.04			2.295
25% IAS		0.75			0.78125			1.5			1.8			2.025
33% IAS		0.67			0.75125			1.32			1.584			1.782

Conclusion: If you use no IAS skill or only a weak one the updated Penetrating Attack/Sundering Attack is stronger than the version before the update.
If you use a 25% IAS or a only a occasionally usable 33% IAS skill (Lightning Reflexes+Dwarven Stability) the old versions can be activated a little bit faster but this advantage gets compensated by the fact that you can use the updated versions a little bit more often.
Only if you use a permanent 33% IAS skill the old versions are actual better than the updated ones.

Redvex · Feb 12, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

If not Barrage, since Pene/Sund Attack is dead, I'm thinking of a Point Blank/Zojun's turret. Still trying to compile a build for that though.

I try it but pen/sund works better.
Zojuns and point blank are powerful but:
1) slow fire
2) half range means that you must walk for a little loosing speed attack.

I'm hurted with nerf fast activation of powershot.

FoxBat · Feb 12, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Thanks to an explanation from FoxBat we are able to correct the initial chart so that it can explain actual ingame experiance.
.

I'm not so confident on this point. At least for the 1s attacks, the .5 aftercast is in addition. The way they work visually is 1 sec attack animation and .5 secs doing nothing. They way they work in terms of unit behavior is .5 seconds arrow is fired, and 1 second you can't do anything. So if you look at it in terms of behavior rather than animation, then it's really 1 second of aftercast - this is probably the same way people derive 1.75 for the aftercast on bow interrupts. (Plus .25 till arrow leaves bow = 2 seconds between bow attacks.)

Like I've said elsewhere, I think the aftercast on .75 attacks is less than the .5/1 seen on 1s attacks - but I don't really know how to measure exactly. Aside from it seeming like I can almost get three such attacks off in the time of a hero's 2s spell.

Chthon · Feb 12, 2010, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I did some more testing on this. I am getting totally different results than my previous tests. That leads me to think that perhaps we had a stealth update along with the NEw Year's stuff. (Or perhaps I'm observationally retarded, one of the two...)

Anywho, today I observe this:

1. Pen/Sun have exactly the same timing as Needling.
2. Pen/Sun/Needle have exactly the same start-to-arrow-release time as Savage and DShot, 1/4sec. (Test: Synch with ranger hero. Pain in the butt.)
3. Pen/Sun/Needle definitely have an aftercast delay. (Test: Try to move immediately when arrow is released; you'll find yourself stuck in place.)
4. Length of aftercast seems to be .5sec. (Test: Have friend try to cast 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 spells on you immediately when arrow is released, before you move; my friend found 1/4 spells possible but very hard, which is consistent with what I'd expect given latency.)
5. Able to land 4 shots (Pen + Sun + (Echo)Pen + Needle) in slightly under 3 sec. (Test: Flag hero next to practice dummy. Precast Echo. Fire first shot at dummy and cast troll unguent on hero simultaneously. Friend watches hero's activation bar and counts arrows hit dummy while you concentrate on proper skill queuing.)

That leads me to think that they are now 1/4 cast plus 1/2 aftercast.

That would be consistent with observation #5.
.25 (cast) + .5 (aftercast) + .25 (cast) + .5 (aftercast) + .25 (cast) + .5 (aftercast) + .25 (cast) + Needling_flight_time = 2.5 + Needling_flight_time.

The 3/8 figure on wiki is not consistent with Observation #2. (Although it's conceivable I can't tell .25sec and .375sec apart) Nor is it consistent with Observation #5. .375 (cast) + .5 (aftercast) + .375 (cast) + .5 (aftercast) + .375 (cast) + .5 (aftercast) + .375 (cast) + Needling_flight_time = 3 + Needling_flight_time.

[Edit: Aftercast is not reduced by IAS.]

Redvex · Feb 13, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Rembember that pen and sunder also have nerfed penetration from 20% to 10%

Desert Rose · Feb 13, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

That was changed nearly two years ago.

FoxBat · Feb 14, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

If Chthon's new numbers are correct, then the new pen/sundering is basically better at zero IAS, and near equivalent at 33%. This would mean an actual buff... It also somehow makes sense for a lazy way for anet to implement. (.25 activation + .5 aftercast = almost same effect as old .75 activation)